Jos: As a venue, you have to do something with it, so that's why we said let's start working with those artists.
Maaike: If you really want to integrate it into your practice, you also need to take the time to explore that technology, so it can't just be, ‘oh, this is how I work and then I’ll throw a robot into it.’
Anic in voice-over: This is Culture Shift, a podcast by DEN, the driving force behind digital transformation in the cultural sector. I’m Anic, and in this series, I dive into the world of digital transformation. Because if there’s one thing we absolutely cannot ignore, it’s the growing importance of digital to make the sector future-proof. By keeping up with digital developments, you reach your audience now and in the future.
Digital transformation, as the term suggests, requires a change, a shift within your organization and in the sector as a whole. Fortunately, there are already many museums, theaters, and music venues showing what’s possible. In this podcast, I visit these organizations and ask them about their successes and pitfalls. Additionally, I speak with various experts who can tell me everything about the role of digital in culture. Because how do you reach a broader audience? And how can digital help you create impact? You’ll hear it all in Culture Shift!
In this episode, we’ll talk about the influence of technology on creation and experience. When creators embrace new techniques, it will naturally have significant consequences for the creative process… and ultimately for the visitor’s experience. Jos Feijen knows this better than anyone. He is the director of the Effenaar music venue in Eindhoven and has been working on this for years. I travel to Eindhoven to interview him in his office above the concert hall about his experiences. First of all, I’m curious why Jos feels so motivated to embrace digital?
Jos: You can see in these new developments that there’s a young audience completely immersed in them, so you need to connect with that. With these new tools, you can create new experiences. These tools also allow artists to engage people in their world in entirely new ways. So it actually offers new opportunities for artists. And another thing, which I also find important, especially in pop music because it’s so accessible, is that it can accelerate or simplify the acceptance of new digital technologies in society. Because people see examples from those they idolize or admire, who are using it.
Anic in voice-over: Enough reason to get started with it. Jos decided 5 years ago to be a pioneer in this area.
Jos: It’s actually still very rarely used in the music world or even in the cultural sector in general. And you can see that the sector is, frankly put, conservative in this regard. We like to do things the way we’ve always done them and want to keep it that way. For us, it was because we saw these developments and felt we needed to do something with them. I said, let’s just explore it, and exploring is a search process. It’s not something where you say, ‘oh, now go facilitate this or that.’ It’s a search process, and we started that five years ago, looking into what’s possible. To be honest: five years ago, I didn’t really know what VR was, well, maybe that’s an exaggeration, but I didn’t know what VR or AR was and what you could do with it. It was one big question mark for me too, so you gradually start discovering it.
Anic in voice-over: During that discovery, Jos also encountered challenges.
Jos: But for artists, it’s still very difficult to find their way in this because they’re not trained for it. Classical music education, and this applies to theater as well, trains you to stand on stage with the audience in front of you. But if you think virtually, that’s no longer the case. The audience is somewhere, looking from an angle, and it can go in all sorts of other ways. So you have to think differently. Another thing is that they think, ‘yeah, but new technology, programs, complicated equipment.’ So there’s a sort of barrier to getting started with it. And they don’t really know what’s possible with it. So they lack examples.
Anic in voice-over: It might seem daunting to get started, but it can also bring you a lot. To learn more about this, I invite Maaike Bleeker to the studio. She is a professor at Utrecht University and researches the influence of new technologies on the creative process and theater experience, so she knows everything about this topic. I ask her if she can tell me how technology can help a creator: for what purpose can they use it?
Maaike: You see that some creators see the possibilities in how technology makes things they were already doing easier or enhances them. You can use audio in new ways, with contact microphones, you can mix faster, record rehearsals and play them back quickly, and you can draw inspiration from the entire internet. So these are all supportive forms where many people see great opportunities to use them. Then there are the possibilities that audiences also become more aware of, which really involve other forms becoming possible. Other forms of creation and other ways of presenting things on stage. For example, through virtual reality, augmented reality, interactive technology, or robotics. So then you’re really, it’s very much in your face, so to speak.
Anic in voice-over: Every creator has a different creative process and will integrate technology in their own way. Maaike has some great examples.
Maaike: They see, ‘hey, what I’m already doing can be taken even further with this.’ For example, you can clearly see this in the work of Ivo van Hove and Jan Versweyveld. They were already working very visually, and then came the possibilities for recordings that could be used as decor. Then you could also mix live recordings into it. That’s essentially building on what they were already doing. Or other people think, ‘hey, I was already working on moving the actor out of the center. What if the entire decor becomes the performer and I can control all of that? Or what if you go beyond the theater, which theater makers have been doing in public spaces for a long time, but now you can stretch that further by how you guide people in public spaces, through their cell phones.’
Anic in voice-over: Both artistically and practically, technology offers incredible possibilities. Jos sees roughly 4 ways to use digital tools for a performance.
Jos: You can talk about interaction with the audience. Everyone has their mobile phone with them these days, or you can work with wristbands. You can involve the audience. A great example of this is the smartphone orchestra by Steye, where the entire audience can participate with colors and such. And there are a few other things like that. Then you have a story where the artist can use technology to give more control over the program. Chagall is a great example of this. Chagall was originally a traditional singer in a band, with a piano and a laptop. Because everyone these days stands on stage with a laptop, she missed the connection with her audience. She was staring at her laptop and piano, so she couldn’t convey her emotions. Then she came into contact with Imogen Heap in London, who developed MiMu Gloves. MiMu Gloves are gloves with sensors in them. When you move your fingers, those sensors register it. This allows you to control things. She uses them to control her voice, so for each song, she has a sort of choreography with her hands, where she can add an entire orchestra, beats, distort her voice, and add effects. She stands on stage with those gloves on. Then there’s three, where you add AR to a venue. You get an extra layer. Now we all use light, video, and sound in a venue; we all know that. But I can also add another layer via AR. That could be on a screen, a mesh cloth, for example. I always need a screen for something like this, for now. It could also be with smoke or water droplets. And if you do it with your phone, I can also add personal messages because I can add a layer, and that layer can be different for you than for me. And the last one is going completely virtual. Then it actually becomes detached. It can be detached from the concert because it doesn’t have to be simultaneous. And you can also experience it wherever you want, in a way you want.
Anic in voice-over: So many options! I can imagine that creators might not know where to start. What should you consider as a creator when you want to get started with this?
Maaike: Well, I think you should consider that if you really want to integrate it into your practice, you also need to take the time to explore that technology. So it can’t just be, ‘oh, this is how I work, and then I’ll throw a robot into it.’ Because then you’ll run into all sorts of problems. Those technologies will also change your work process. But you also discover many possibilities, and it doesn’t integrate into your work. It quickly becomes a tacked-on piece. I think the creators where you really see results from this, what it can all bring, are often people who have explored it very gradually. Often together with people who have a lot of knowledge about that technology.
Anic: Okay, so you actually need to expand or broaden your team or find people who are good at it? Can you give an example of a great collaboration you’ve seen?
Maaike: Yes, there are many, so this isn’t meant as a hierarchy, but I think I can best talk about the collaboration I was part of. For example, with Ulrike Quade. She, with her long history of animating objects, thought, ‘hey, there’s something in these new technologies.’ And I was working from theater studies, thinking about how we deal with it and what theater and these new technologies can do together. Through several research projects we were both involved in, which we led from my university, we explored what happens when you bring these two together. And then you see that you explore things outside of actual productions, which then find their way into productions. I think that’s often a very good way, or you look for workshops. You look for small things to try out and for people who want to do that with you. People who are also curious. And I think with Ulrike, those people from robotics thought, ‘hey, there’s something in this for us too,’ and then other people join in, and you mutually help each other develop.
Anic in voice-over: The creative process will also change when you start working with new technologies.
Maaike: What’s very complex about this is that it actually changes the entire rhythm and logic of your creative process because a new component is introduced. This not only changes the product but also how you work. For example, if you want to work with a robot, every small change in its behavior requires a lot of programming time. Well, I always thought, can’t actors change faster? But actors are lightning-fast compared to a robot. You also get the question: what should we have done first? Should we have programmed the robot first or created the performance first? Should we have created the VR first and then worked within it, or half of it, and then-? So you really have to think about it, and you usually only figure it out by doing. So you just need more time and space to figure that out. And if you want it to become a real part of the artistic possibilities, then you especially need time and space to experiment and expertise.
Anic in voice-over: Jos knows that venues can play an important role in facilitating expertise. At the Effenaar, he tries to guide creators by offering time, space, and knowledge. Venues like the Effenaar keeping up with digital developments is, according to him, very important.
Jos: As a venue, you have to do something with it. Because we, I’m now 60, so we have a kind of romanticism around: I want to stand together with many people somewhere and then watch an artist we can no longer see because everyone has their phone up. Then you get a bit of beer spilled on you here and there, and we think that’s great. But now there’s a generation coming. And what is live for them? For them, live is playing a game together via Twitch. So live doesn’t necessarily have to be tied to being together in one location. Live is experiencing something together without it having to be in one location. So there’s a generation coming that will look at this differently. And with that, all these new technologies are not a replacement for me. It’s an addition, and you can say, as a venue, I don’t want anything to do with it. But that also means, I think, that you’ll alienate part of your future audience.
Anic in voice-over: Jos finds it important to embrace technology but also sees the doubts among creators.
Jos: That’s why we said: let’s start working with those artists. And with those artists, see how I can update them, how I can involve them in this, how I can inspire them, and how I can let them develop their own ideas within this. Then you see that there’s a lack of access to facilities for the artists. So space, for example, the halls I have here, which are partly empty, but also equipment. That’s where our makerspace comes in. In that makerspace, I have a complete video recording setup and powerful computers, along with people who can build their own digital, virtual environments. That equipment is available for artists to work with.
Anic in voice-over: Jos also quickly sees the potential of the region he’s in: the tech hub of the Netherlands.
Jos: We started collaborating with companies, looking at who’s working on this. There are many companies in this region, of course, that are involved in this. And what are they doing, and what can you do with it? Then you see that those companies find it interesting to collaborate with artists because they bring a completely different kind of creativity. They don’t think from a technological perspective but think, ‘hey, that’s cool, can I do this with it or that with it?’ So they actually explore the boundaries of what’s possible with that technology.
Anic in voice-over: Jos works, for example, with the AR company Dutch Rose Media. They have a studio where you can film people and create a digital version of them, a sort of hologram.
Jos: One of the first things we did with such a digital person was with Clouseau, a band from Belgium. They saw what was happening here and we talked to them about it, and they said, “Wow, I’d like to see that.” What we did then was record them, and they used it in an album. This way, I can literally have them perform on the table in front of us. It has to be through your phone because you need a screen to look through, but then they’re just here in this space, both brothers playing together.
Anic in voice-over: The Effenaar is a place where creators can come to experiment. Over the past few years, many great projects have been launched. One of the most important is the Hybrid Music Vibes. During this project, a number of artists are guided into the digital world. They get the chance to create something themselves with new technologies. Jos learned a lot from the first edition.
Jos: In the first edition, we involved a number of artists from the region. Mainly, we guided them. And actually, all those artists made very cool music videos. I was actually surprised because I thought, ‘yeah, we’re going to work with new technology.’ What I learned from that is that we adjusted the program slightly. We had told them in advance that they could use a recording studio for half a day, and everyone immediately thought, ‘Wow, music video.’ So that’s where it went wrong. But also, the industry came into play again. Because they thought, ‘Yeah, that band I just signed is working on this, oh, that’s a cool, slick music video, so I can use it immediately for the release.’ So you see that, in some way, the step for the artists to really move into the more virtual world was too big in one go. And then also the industry’s thinking, which hindered it again by immediately thinking, ‘Okay, we need to show results.’
Anic in voice-over: A valuable lesson for the second edition of Hybrid Music Vibes, which has just started. Ultimately, you want to use technology to enhance the audience’s experience.
Maaike: Used well, it enhances the things theater makers are looking for. This can range from a more individual experience to a more collective one. It can be much more intense, shutting out the whole world, it can be inside the theater, or outside. I think sometimes, with certain digital tools, you tap into a slightly different experience. A great example is a performance by a group called Dead Centre. They had a performance called Chekhov’s First Play. They presented it as an attempt to stage a play by Chekhov, his first play, which is considered almost unstageable, in a completely classical way. At the same time, you hear a sort of commentary from the director through headphones, which puts you in a completely different experience. You’re in a theater, but you also have headphones on, so it feels very private. You can hear the stage and the person, and that person guides you in what’s happening but eventually loses the thread and panics. Then, well, then the whole set collapses, and all sorts of things happen, allowing you to watch the performance on multiple levels. That’s a very different experience than the classic Chekhov experience. Where it’s about completely forgetting you’re in the theater and opening up a different world for you. I think that’s a way of experiencing that aligns more with contemporary reality. In that sense, it’s also a very interesting adaptation or actualization of Chekhov, because Chekhov was also about getting close to his audience. Only, that was a different time. So he did it with different means, and they found a form through technology that is very much of this time.
Anic in voice-over: Jos saw these opportunities 5 years ago but initially struggled to convince others of their importance.
Jos: I actually did this outside the organization. At first, I tried to bring it in, but that was very difficult because people didn’t understand it. And I don’t mean that in a negative way, but they didn’t understand why we should do it and what it would mean later on. Because it’s quite far off, you know, because there are no artists touring with a virtual show attached to it, almost none, let’s put it that way. So why should we, as a music venue, do this? I just couldn’t explain that message well, and it only came to life when the first examples appeared. Now I do see people saying, ‘Oh, that’s cool, that’s fun.’ And with that, it hasn’t yet become a standard part of the organization, but it needs to grow into that. So that will be one of my challenges in the coming years. You slowly see it happening that this just becomes a standard part of what we do.
Anic in voice-over: Jos went for it with the Effenaar and convinced the organization with great examples. Getting your organization on board can be quite challenging, and Maaike advises having a conversation with your colleagues.
Maaike: I would also think very much about how you can formulate this from what you want to achieve. If you can formulate it from, ‘this is our goal, so why don’t we look at the possibilities of this or that technology? Or we see an example where they use this. Isn’t that something for us? Because we want this.’ So I think always thinking very much about why you want to use it and knowing how to connect it to the goal of your organization.
Anic in voice-over: It’s important that your organization doesn’t just look at the financial aspect.
Jos: But I think it’s essential not to think about money right away. That may sound strange because, ultimately, it shouldn’t cost money. But if you immediately think, ‘Okay, how am I going to earn so much money?’ then you don’t have room for this experiment. I want things to emerge where the artist thinks, ‘Hey, that’s cool,’ where the audience thinks, ‘I like that,’ and that bring some innovation to the sector. And I’d like to contribute to that.
Anic in voice-over: Jos decided to go all in with the Effenaar, but that also means something for your employees. How does Jos get his people on board?
Jos: Look, in the cultural world, also in pop music, you have people who have been working there for a long time, and that doesn’t necessarily have to be a bad thing. They have a wealth of experience and are fantastic people. But there are also people, and you see this in every company, who think, ‘Well, you know, I do my job very well. I’m not necessarily interested in all sorts of new things.’ Yeah, that’s like flogging a dead horse. So you do need people who say, ‘Yeah, you know, I like this.’ I have someone here who says, ‘I love this. I want to be part of it. I want to do things in this area,’ and then someone like that also creates space for themselves. I’m not saying they all have to work unpaid extra hours. But then you see, somehow, there’s also a kind of pressure from the employee. ‘But I want to do this,’ and yeah, it’s up to us to see if someone isn’t overworked. And whether I should look at bringing in more people to ensure everything keeps running smoothly.
Anic in voice-over: Maaike sees that a lot is changing for employees, especially for those working with technology.
Maaike: The realization that bringing in something with new technologies also places a different kind of demand on your technical staff, the knowledge that must be present. Because these are very rapid developments, it goes beyond the institutions themselves. But it’s also about the theater technology sector as a whole. That theater technology is much less about, ‘Oh, you need to know this, and then you’re good.’ But that you end up in a situation where it also becomes a very important development factor. In performance, the role of technology is also changing.
Jos: When you start working with new things, yeah, there’s no rider from the band. So it’s like, ‘Yeah, okay, oh, yeah, what do we need to do now?’ Yeah, I don’t know yet. And you see that this isn’t always easy for the organization. So at least be curious and try to discover a bit about how things work. And don’t be disappointed if they turn out a bit differently because you’re really entering a world where many more aspects come into play than you’re used to.
Anic in voice-over: The Effenaar is full of enthusiasm and tries to be the link between artists, audiences, and companies, but to make it a big success, you need the entire chain.
Jos: Just as the artist isn’t used to it, the record label or management isn’t used to it either. And very quickly, it’s like, ‘Yeah, you know, that takes time and costs money. Should we even do it?’ Yeah, you know, Clouseau was also with a big label, and we had quite a few conversations with that label. Because Clouseau wanted it, and that label was like, ‘And what do I do with it? And what can I do with it? And it costs money.’ So they were initially enthusiastic. But when they started thinking about it, all sorts of things came up, like, ‘Yeah, but why? And so you have to keep getting various parties on board to do something with it.
Anic in voice-over: Jos advocates for a way to store and share knowledge, especially since developments are moving so fast.
Jos: You do something cool with an artist, and that artist finishes and leaves. Yeah, and then? And I see that particularly—this is a discussion I’m having with educational institutions—there are many students in this region who are working with technology and love collaborating with artists. But then they come up with an idea for an artist, submit their project, and move on to their next year. They’re gone again, and that project is usually just not finished because they don’t have the time. But there are some very interesting projects among them, so how do I pick that up and deal with it? I think that’s a big challenge right now.
Maaike: I think we’re indeed missing the fact that this still needs to settle further because you create a situation where the knowledge is also retained somewhere. What you often see at the moment is that there’s a lot of experimentation, which is fantastic. But then you’ve done an experiment, and where does that knowledge go? So you actually need that knowledge to stay somewhere and eventually be linked to, for example, masterclasses for technicians.
Anic in voice-over: Sharing knowledge is difficult when everything consists of separate projects. Financially, it’s also challenging to build something when you only get project funding. Still, Jos also shows that you can look beyond subsidies for funding.
Jos: We now have a partnership with ASML, for example, and they find it very interesting to work on these developments as well. So people from ASML are allowed to spend part of their time on things for society. So now I’m working with people from ASML to see what’s possible in this venue. Then we can develop ideas for that, so you can see that it’s slowly coming together.
Anic: Yeah, great. So what could ASML contribute, for example?
Jos: Well, I already find it very cool that they, of course, have very specific knowledge in-house and that they’re thinking from that knowledge about how you can apply it to, for example, a music venue. So if you’re talking about working with holograms on stage, how can you do that in a new way? ASML does more projects. For example, with Glow here in Eindhoven, they also collaborate. And maybe, to give an example, they developed a project during the last Glow where water droplets were shot at with laser beams. And that created enormous light effects, which is also a collaboration with an artist. So yeah, those are things you wouldn’t immediately think of yourself, and you need someone to facilitate and advance that.
Anic in voice-over: Jos also sees that there are already plenty of possibilities without very expensive equipment.
Jos: But it doesn’t have to be so polished, and it doesn’t all have to be broadcast quality. Because most people now also watch on a phone if you’re talking about those kinds of things. Even if you’re talking about virtual reality, then you need a headset. But a lot is, of course, on your phone, so it doesn’t have to be at that level. So suddenly, you see that you can create things. This also has to do with technological developments, with equipment that’s much cheaper and knowledge that’s much more accessible. And also, if you look at what’s happening now around AI, for example. With the creation of literally virtual people, so people who don’t exist at all. There’s software that’s already so easy that anyone who spends, let’s say, half a day on it can do a lot with it.
Anic in voice-over: Jos has already experimented with many technologies and is eager to show me some of them. First, the album cover of the Eindhoven band The Dirty Denims.
Jos: If you scanned that album cover, you saw them playing on the cover. And if you were in the venue and scanned their backdrop in the venue, something related to the song being played would appear. So if I have a replica backdrop behind you...
Anic: Ah, there’s a print on a whiteboard.
Jos: Yeah, and what do you see happening?
Anic: When we hold the phone up, I see a dino on a rocket.
Jos: So if you scanned that and you were in the venue, that dinosaur would fly through the venue towards you, and that was a lot of fun.
Anic: Yeah, amazing.
Anic in voice-over: I’ve also seen a VR headset lying around and am really curious about what they do with it.
Anic: Okay, I’m putting on the headset. I already hear music, there’s the DJ. A DJ who’s going all out behind his turntables. I can imagine that if you do this at home with the headset on, you’d really get into it too.
Jos: You now see a DJ who’s still in a white background. So there’s no background yet. Because this isn’t finished yet. But eventually, you place that DJ wherever you want. So they can be on the beach, on top of Mount Everest, playing underwater, anywhere. So what we’ve done here is create an entire performance, about 20 minutes, virtually. This means you can place it anywhere and watch it whenever you feel like it. Have you ever seen the movie Ready Player One?
Anic: Yes, yes. That we’ll choose the virtual world over reality.
Jos: Yes, that’s what it’s about. Well, I hope that doesn’t happen, but I’m convinced it will take an important place.
Anic in voice-over: Digital is the future, and Maaike has one more important tip for anyone looking to get started with it.
Maaike: I would think that you should especially not try to do everything at once, so also think carefully about what you’re going to focus on and why it’s relevant for your organization or the type of creators and audience that are relevant to you. And then also keep in mind that working with this is different from opening the box and reading the manual. So it’s also about starting somewhere, trying it out, developing it through doing, and then I think you can achieve very good results. But it’s complex, so don’t try to do it all at once.
Anic in voice-over: Want to learn more about how technology can influence creation and experience? Visit den.nl.
Also, listen to the other episodes in this podcast! In the next episode of Culture Shift, we’ll discuss what digital transformation really entails and how you can use it as a cultural institution to reach even more people. I’ll visit Bert Mennings from the Limburgs Museum, who can tell me how they approach it.
Read the transcripts of the other episodes
